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Discussion for the New Magic System
09-18-2007, 11:54 AM,
Post: #1
Discussion for the New Magic System
Let me start off by saying in this thread you are only permitted to discuss magic, if you bring in something that isn’t related to magic I will delete your post and if you persist a dev forum ban may be used.

In this thread you are only speaking to me, Shuck, so if you mail a staff member in game who is not me you will likely be directed to me. So, in this thread I will respond to every question, it will not be instant and it may take me a few days, but I will get to each and every one of them. (Also, please only mail me about this if I have not responded to your post in over a week, if you post and mail me at the same time it will cause me to take longer on only your post.)

You can discuss anything relating to magic: Criticism of what is there, suggestions on anything, feedback, questions about magic, anything at all. Keep in mind it has to be constructive, if you say something like “It sucks” I will delete your post, explain why you think that, maybe offer a suggestion to make it better.

If this thread becomes a “Bash Staff” thread there will be trouble for any involved. This is your only warning, it will not be said again

To view the system go here > <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.phantasyrpg.com/dev/index.php?topic=3492.0">http://www.phantasyrpg.com/dev/index.php?topic=3492.0</a><!-- m -->
Currently attending Princeton University. If you need my assistance, let me know and I will get back to you as soon as possible.
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09-18-2007, 01:14 PM,
Post: #2
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Might as well start, as I did in Arcus' thread. Tongue

-Eldrons get higher tiers in magic, but do they get the same magical avoidance and resistance as combat fighters? It seems pretty disadvantageous to have the same stats as a Protector, but end up losing because they simply have tier 3 spells to cast, compared to my tier 1.

-On that note, which combat classes get the resistance and avoidance stuff, or does that encompass everyone? If so, wouldn't that mean that magic users still have the advantage by basically having spells, resistance, and avoidance, while combat classes have just the latter?

-Some tier 1 or 2 defined classes really don't have a need to cast anything, judging how weak the spells are. It'd probably be a waste casting a spell than just attacking in any given circumstance, so why bother even having magic for a Monster class such as I?

-Exactly how much wisdom can I have until my spells are "capped"? Is that endless? If I had 5000 wisdom, my "Magikarp, use a head on SPLASH attack!" could do.. what.. 500 damage then? Or, is there a limit to how much a spell can do?

-Is there a system of weak vs. strong magic elements, as there was before?

-I have to ask, sorry. Is this system ready for coding, unlike the last? In other words, is this it? Finally? T_T

More questions soon to come, most likely.  ;D
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there is absolutely nothing wrong with the staff system, its being run just like its always been. - LordDoerr
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09-18-2007, 01:37 PM,
Post: #3
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Kraxxia Wrote:Might as well start, as I did in Arcus' thread. Tongue

-Eldrons get higher tiers in magic, but do they get the same magical avoidance and resistance as combat fighters? It seems pretty disadvantageous to have the same stats as a Protector, but end up losing because they simply have tier 3 spells to cast, compared to my tier 1.

This is because the Eldron have a stronger tie with magic. Basically, you will see what advantage they get in magic balanced out when class abilities are released. In other words, as it may look like a pure advantage for Eldrons that they will get magic, their class abilities will be more moderate compared to the other races.

Kraxxia Wrote:-On that note, which combat classes get the resistance and avoidance stuff, or does that encompass everyone? If so, wouldn't that mean that magic users still have the advantage by basically having spells, resistance, and avoidance, while combat classes have just the latter?

All classes and races will have the resistance and dodging, though, these "techniques" will be more advantageous to mage classes.

Kraxxia Wrote:-Some tier 1 or 2 defined classes really don't have a need to cast anything, judging how weak the spells are. It'd probably be a waste casting a spell than just attacking in any given circumstance, so why bother even having magic for a Monster class such as I?

Well, sadly yes. At this time it wouldn't really be an advantage for the lower tier classes to cast spells. In the future there may be a system where the nonmages will be able to upgrade their magic tier, but that is merely speculation. So right now, you and me will be stuck with close to no magic  Big Grin

Kraxxia Wrote:-Exactly how much wisdom can I have until my spells are "capped"? Is that endless? If I had 5000 wisdom, my "Magikarp, use a head on SPLASH attack!" could do.. what.. 500 damage then? Or, is there a limit to how much a spell can do?

There is no limit else we would have to cap the attack of fighter classes.

Kraxxia Wrote:-Is there a system of weak vs. strong magic elements, as there was before?

This relation is shown in the area effect spells. Also, there may be a moderate advantage for say, water going against fire, those kinds of effects, but right now they are not listed as it will be observed if it is required with the release of magic.

Kraxxia Wrote:-I have to ask, sorry. Is this system ready for coding, unlike the last? In other words, is this it? Finally? T_T

That's what we're going to find out with this Q&A session here.
Currently attending Princeton University. If you need my assistance, let me know and I will get back to you as soon as possible.
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09-18-2007, 01:55 PM,
Post: #4
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Hi, how about redistributing AP's once the magic system is implemented, because all players including magic based characters did focus for attack on strength and not on wisdom? So that would be a disadvantage for mostly magic chars?
Greets,
Afar
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09-18-2007, 02:10 PM,
Post: #5
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
was just comparing the list of Rhizard Classes to the magic list... I fairly certain that the Prince of Tides is the same as the Prince of Ancient Waters.. however was looking at the class descriptions/requirements also and found that even though the Wraith requires a higher wisdom then the Abbey; the Wraith is only a tier 4 caster while the Abbey is a Tier 5.

and quoting from the requirements / descriptions...

Wraith  -  Required Strength: 40  Required Dexterity: 175  Required Vitality: 50  Required Wisdom: 175
  "The Wraith is magical line of the Rhizards so heavily trained in magical arts that she is thought of as a mystical genius amongst the generally unintelligable public of the race. She has gained nearly the brink of her magical extent and has become a powerful magical entity"

Abbey  -  Required Strength: 75 Required Dexterity: 90 Required Vitality: 120 Required Wisdom: 150
  "An Abbey has a tremendous amount of power in all areas of magic. They have moderated their magical training so that they will be prepared for any confrontation that might arise. Along with their magical training they have some expertise in physically fighting..."

now from those descriptions I'd say perhaps the Abbey should be tier 4 and the Wraith tier 5.

no complaints on the male side of the Rhizard chain as there's only one true caster.
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09-18-2007, 02:52 PM,
Post: #6
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Afar Wrote:Hi, how about redistributing AP's once the magic system is implemented, because all players including magic based characters did focus for attack on strength and not on wisdom? So that would be a disadvantage for mostly magic chars?
Greets,
Afar

It's highly unlikely that that will happen since all casters knew that magic would eventually come out.

Snowbrother Wrote:was just comparing the list of Rhizard Classes to the magic list... I fairly certain that the Prince of Tides is the same as the Prince of Ancient Waters.. however was looking at the class descriptions/requirements also and found that even though the Wraith requires a higher wisdom then the Abbey; the Wraith is only a tier 4 caster while the Abbey is a Tier 5.

and quoting from the requirements / descriptions...

Wraith  -  Required Strength: 40  Required Dexterity: 175  Required Vitality: 50  Required Wisdom: 175
  "The Wraith is magical line of the Rhizards so heavily trained in magical arts that she is thought of as a mystical genius amongst the generally unintelligable public of the race. She has gained nearly the brink of her magical extent and has become a powerful magical entity"

Abbey  -  Required Strength: 75 Required Dexterity: 90 Required Vitality: 120 Required Wisdom: 150
  "An Abbey has a tremendous amount of power in all areas of magic. They have moderated their magical training so that they will be prepared for any confrontation that might arise. Along with their magical training they have some expertise in physically fighting..."

now from those descriptions I'd say perhaps the Abbey should be tier 4 and the Wraith tier 5.

no complaints on the male side of the Rhizard chain as there's only one true caster.

Good point. I actually think I'll go through the classes and possibly redo those. That is one of the only things I didn't touch from the old system, but as you just proved it needs looked at.
Currently attending Princeton University. If you need my assistance, let me know and I will get back to you as soon as possible.
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09-18-2007, 03:44 PM,
Post: #7
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Quote:
Kraxxia Wrote:-Some tier 1 or 2 defined classes really don't have a need to cast anything, judging how weak the spells are. It'd probably be a waste casting a spell than just attacking in any given circumstance, so why bother even having magic for a Monster class such as I?

Well, sadly yes. At this time it wouldn't really be an advantage for the lower tier classes to cast spells. In the future there may be a system where the nonmages will be able to upgrade their magic tier, but that is merely speculation. So right now, you and me will be stuck with close to no magic  Big Grin

I apologize for the inconsistencies in this post Tongue...There really isn't any difference in what a magic user is to a combat class as of right now. Stats and levels are so whacked, that any class can do anything any other class can do (aside from the defunct abilities Tongue). Why do magic users get tier 4-5 spells with 200 wisdom while I can peak 1000 wisdom and get stuck with tier 1? Simply put, they can do anything I can, but they just get better spells. They can still get 5x my ATK and DEF but I can't go beyond tier 1 spells still, while I can get 5x their wisdom and still be stuck at my magic level.

About resistances and avoidance - do combat classes get an increase in this, since they aren't magically inclined to counterbalance the lack of increase in magic tiers? Do Hounzalids get a boost in this, as was said before (I think)? If there ever would be a way to increase my tiers in magic, I think lower magic classes should have higher resistances, which decreases to the same level as magic users. It's been simplistic too long now; Strength and Dexterity were the only ways to battle, that veteran magic class players have essentially become warriors wearing robes over the years. They will have the same thing everyone else has, except they get new destructive toys and the balance of power will ultimately shift in their favor. While I'm not complaining about that, I'm just pointing that out because we've been told about magic taking so long to ensure balance for so long.

While magic users finally get to cast their shiny new spells, you and I (as well as other dumb, low tiered folk Tongue) get pretty much nothing out of the whole thing. We're both way beyond the point of casting Splash, much less lasting more than two rounds in a fight... so what's this magic system for, to us low tieries? I guess the way I'm looking at it, I've got no purpose to look forward to the magic system, and I'm just looking for a reason. I'm not trying to corner you into saying something or anything. T_T  :-*

If you've gotten something hidden up your sleeve and can't say, I place a blight upon you mister Shuck! Tongue And yay, replied more than once! Very promising! Big Grin

EDIT: Please for the love of Kahrexian, don't involve phanpoints into this magic system. T_T I don't feel like paying phanpoints to access a tier that magic users have, unless they have to pay points for things only combat classes have.
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there is absolutely nothing wrong with the staff system, its being run just like its always been. - LordDoerr
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09-18-2007, 03:52 PM,
Post: #8
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Kraxxia Wrote:
Quote:
Kraxxia Wrote:-Some tier 1 or 2 defined classes really don't have a need to cast anything, judging how weak the spells are. It'd probably be a waste casting a spell than just attacking in any given circumstance, so why bother even having magic for a Monster class such as I?

Well, sadly yes. At this time it wouldn't really be an advantage for the lower tier classes to cast spells. In the future there may be a system where the nonmages will be able to upgrade their magic tier, but that is merely speculation. So right now, you and me will be stuck with close to no magic  Big Grin

I apologize for the inconsistencies in this post Tongue...There really isn't any difference in what a magic user is to a combat class as of right now. Stats and levels are so whacked, that any class can do anything any other class can do (aside from the defunct abilities Tongue). Why do magic users get tier 4-5 spells with 200 wisdom while I can peak 1000 wisdom and get stuck with tier 1? Simply put, they can do anything I can, but they just get better spells. They can still get 5x my ATK and DEF but I can't go beyond tier 1 spells still, while I can get 5x their wisdom and still be stuck at my magic level.

About resistances and avoidance - do combat classes get an increase in this, since they aren't magically inclined to counterbalance the lack of increase in magic tiers? Do Hounzalids get a boost in this, as was said before (I think)? If there ever would be a way to increase my tiers in magic, I think lower magic classes should have higher resistances, which decreases to the same level as magic users. It's been simplistic too long now; Strength and Dexterity were the only ways to battle, that veteran magic class players have essentially become warriors wearing robes over the years. They will have the same thing everyone else has, except they get new destructive toys and the balance of power will ultimately shift in their favor. While I'm not complaining about that, I'm just pointing that out because we've been told about magic taking so long to ensure balance for so long.

While magic users finally get to cast their shiny new spells, you and I (as well as other dumb, low tiered folk Tongue) get pretty much nothing out of the whole thing. We're both way beyond the point of casting Splash, much less lasting more than two rounds in a fight... so what's this magic system for, to us low tieries? I guess the way I'm looking at it, I've got no purpose to look forward to the magic system, and I'm just looking for a reason. I'm not trying to corner you into saying something or anything. T_T  :-*

If you've gotten something hidden up your sleeve and can't say, I place a blight upon you mister Shuck! Tongue And yay, replied more than once! Very promising! Big Grin

Do you really think we'd allow the magic users to gain spells while having the exact same combat stats. They will face a large drop of their physical combat abilities. It will make it so them actually choosing to be a magic class means they will have a much harder time with physical combat. Plus, there will be other things added to combat to make it more complex, it won't be the simple I attack you attack mentality, but after magic there will be a diversity added to the combat system that will allow the fighter class players to balance out with the new spells the others are getting.

For the increase in magic tiers, something like that may happen, but it will never be as drastic as a tier 1 user could become a tier 5 user. That is not concrete, but there is a high chance that something like that may happen.

Dodging and such will not change from class to class or anything, but the mage classes will be better at resistance whereas the fighter classes will be better at dodging.

EDIT: We never planned it to use phan points, it will be through use of your stats or a quest, basically something that will be challenging to do, but not impossible
Currently attending Princeton University. If you need my assistance, let me know and I will get back to you as soon as possible.
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09-18-2007, 04:55 PM,
Post: #9
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Shuck Wrote:EDIT: We never planned it to use phan points, it will be through use of your stats or a quest, basically something that will be challenging to do, but not impossible

Will there be a reverse quest for mage classes to learn combat ability that they otherwise would have missed out on?

(Because as Kraxxia said about combat classes having 1000 wisdom, if I had 1000 strength/dexterity, I would be kinda past the point of needing to rely on solely spells and run away from actual combat.) Or perhaps a quest for a set of spells that temporarily increase fighting skills? That's kind of open.

And if say a tier four could somehow eventually reach tier five, what would happen to his her control of opposed elements, which tier five wouldn't have? I was thinking that each tier should have an advanced and then superior progress into it rather than moving up to prevent things like I just mentioned. Example: Tier one has access to only tier one of primary element obviously, tier one advanced could have access to tier two of primary only and superior could have access to tier three in primary only, while actual tier threes would have access to secondary elements. And I don't think that tier four should ever to reach tier five elements because that would kind of ruin tier fives only advantage, so instead I was thinking that tier four advanced sould get something like tier three in opposed and tier four superior would be able to have tier four in secondary elements as well (this is iffy and might be overpowered, but it can be changed to having more class abilities or something or additional spells available to tier four they haven't received yet; edit: I'm sure that they'd love combination element spells that other tiers don't have). And I was thinking that tier five could be able to take advantage of this too (not fair to leave us out Tongue), tier five advanced could recive tier one access to opposed elements, and tier five superior could be able to learn tier four in secondary and tier two in opposed (if this is too overpowered, you could make it tier three in all).

Edit: I think this would eliminate the need for doing a quest for more physical strength too because then we high tiers wouldn't be stagnant in ability. Tongue

More editing (Tongue): The above are meant as examples, which is why I didn't include ideas for all five tiers.
Oh joy.
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09-18-2007, 05:21 PM,
Post: #10
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Etherealsage Wrote:
Shuck Wrote:EDIT: We never planned it to use phan points, it will be through use of your stats or a quest, basically something that will be challenging to do, but not impossible

Will there be a reverse quest for mage classes to learn combat ability that they otherwise would have missed out on?

(Because as Kraxxia said about combat classes having 1000 wisdom, if I had 1000 strength/dexterity, I would be kinda past the point of needing to rely on solely spells and run away from actual combat.) Or perhaps a quest for a set of spells that temporarily increase fighting skills? That's kind of open.

And if say a tier four could somehow eventually reach tier five, what would happen to his her control of opposed elements, which tier five wouldn't have? I was thinking that each tier should have an advanced and then superior progress into it rather than moving up to prevent things like I just mentioned. Example: Tier one has access to only tier one of primary element obviously, tier one advanced could have access to tier two of primary only and superior could have access to tier three in primary only, while actual tier threes would have access to secondary elements. And I don't think that tier four should ever to reach tier five elements because that would kind of ruin tier fives only advantage, so instead I was thinking that tier four advanced sould get something like tier three in opposed and tier four superior would be able to have tier four in secondary elements as well (this is iffy and might be overpowered, but it can be changed to having more class abilities or something or additional spells available to tier four they haven't received yet; edit: I'm sure that they'd love combination element spells that other tiers don't have). And I was thinking that tier five could be able to take advantage of this too (not fair to leave us out Tongue), tier five advanced could recive tier one access to opposed elements, and tier five superior could be able to learn tier four in secondary and tier two in opposed (if this is too overpowered, you could make it tier three in all).

Edit: I think this would eliminate the need for doing a quest for more physical strength too because then we high tiers wouldn't be stagnant in ability. Tongue

More editing (Tongue): The above are meant as examples, which is why I didn't include ideas for all five tiers.

Mage Classes can already use the combat stuff, it will just be weakened as the fighter classes are with magic.

Also, I changed a few things you said and used them in the new system. Thanks




Note: I added the new system for tiers and a few other things in the main pages
Currently attending Princeton University. If you need my assistance, let me know and I will get back to you as soon as possible.
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09-18-2007, 06:46 PM,
Post: #11
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
You're welcome. As payment, can I be a warlock instead of an air master? (Just kidding by the way. Tongue) I do think that being able to promote to tier 5 and keep the use of all five elements is too overpowered without some degree of penalty counterbalance, not to mention warlocks were tier four in the first place because, in the first place (in their descrption), they didn't take a purely magical path and focused a bit on combat...
Oh joy.
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09-18-2007, 08:13 PM,
Post: #12
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
The way I see it is this: Mages will deal more damage faster (as in most games) but they need to since they won't live in an extended battle (plus they run out of mana, warriors just go on whacking >.>)

Warriors will live much longer and will deal a more even amount of damage (no HUGE ranges from like 1-500 Tongue)

Warrior should probably have more resistance to physical atts etc. while mages have more for magic resistance (hey they attack with it so it stands to reason they know how to defend against it too)

as for evasion and such, well it should depend more on the equipment, a warrior in full plate should be able to dodge as much a mage wearing robes (oh and mages probably shouldn't be allowed to wear plate...you need to be able to move your fingers to gesture >.<)

and so as such mages should generally have a higher dodging rate, though a high dex. can mean a lightly equipped warrior has a higher % to dodge
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09-18-2007, 09:12 PM,
Post: #13
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
i kinda noticed that in the list of which characters are set to which Tiers, i didnt see Guardian angel, does this mean that certain characters wont be able to use magic???
Thats Hot!
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09-18-2007, 09:18 PM,
Post: #14
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Shuck Wrote:Tier 3 Magic Users:

Mistress of the Flames** (E, F)
Guardian Angel** (E, F)
Forest Prince (E, M)
Phalanx Major  (H, M)
Prince (H, M)

You must've passed over it  Smile
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09-18-2007, 09:22 PM,
Post: #15
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Sorry Shuck i didnt have my glasses on .... 8)
Thats Hot!
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09-18-2007, 09:29 PM,
Post: #16
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
There's no Maverick  :'( I feel so left out.
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09-18-2007, 09:40 PM,
Post: #17
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
You know, I'm really surprised air mages don't have a spell that makes ranged weapons do more damage and become more accurate since they can control the air around the bow.
Oh joy.
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09-18-2007, 09:44 PM,
Post: #18
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Calah Wrote:There's no Maverick  :'( I feel so left out.

My mistake  :-[ Fixed it now.

Etherealsage Wrote:You know, I'm really surprised air mages don't have a spell that makes ranged weapons do more damage and become more accurate since they can control the air around the bow.

Something like that will be added once we have ranged type weapons
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09-18-2007, 10:45 PM,
Post: #19
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
I have legitimate question. Why is it that only Warlocks have the potential to have all five type of magic? Shouldn't Witches also have the potential to have all five types of magic? They are of the same race, have the same amount of required wisdom for promotion, and they are both in the same tier. The only thing that I see different between the two (besides gender) would be that the Witch has slightly better strength and the Warlock has better vitality.  Unless there is an NDA reason, or it's Writer's mistake as to why only Warlocks have the potential to obtain all five types of Magic, I'd be in my rights to say that's a tiny bit, slightly sexist.  :-\
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09-18-2007, 11:00 PM,
Post: #20
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Not to mention that the descriptions suggested that the air masters were supposed to be the most magically powerful of the male humans, which is why I (and many others) chose it, and now we're finding out that not only can warlocks achieve tier five, but command all the elements as well (which surpasses the air masters by far). That seems a tad unfair.

Edit: I'm not saying that it shouldn't happen, but I do feel like I was led on for this one about choosing this promotion.
Oh joy.
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09-19-2007, 12:10 AM,
Post: #21
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Will we be able to begin a combat with a magic attack?

Now, we can't begin with a mighty or defense attack. Maybe, an advantage for warriors could be doing it.
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09-19-2007, 05:24 AM,
Post: #22
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
wat are dragtor and dueirden is it like rhizard and eldron wear an equipment like ammy of the dead coz i think it should because other wise it wouldn't be fair
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09-19-2007, 08:55 AM,
Post: #23
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
fantasyfarting Wrote:wat are dragtor and dueirden is it like rhizard and eldron wear an equipment like ammy of the dead coz i think it should because other wise it wouldn't be fair

I can answer that for Shuck! ;D

Those are two unreleased races spoken of from years back. One commands stone (Duerdin), the other fire (Dragtor). That's all we peons know. ;_;

Got a weird little suggestion. Since some classes that go up or down tier 5 and 4 is a really big deal, could there be a compromise? Like Etherealsage and Calah pointed out for Warlocks and Air Masters. I can think of two open options. Warlocks need slightly more wisdom than an Air Master to deal the same amount of damage with a spell, making Air Masters more "masterful" of the element (example: Warlock needs 110 wisdom to deal 50 damage, while the Air Master needs but 100)? Tongue Or, Warlocks don't have access to ALL of the tier 5 spells. The second option, however, means that if there ever were a way to increase in tier stuff, Warlocks would probably manage to get all tier 5 spells pretty easily, thus making it even ground for Air Masters as before. T_T

CHAWCLAT REIGN!

EDIT: I didn't see the magic system until now. Ewps! Some of this post is redundant now.
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there is absolutely nothing wrong with the staff system, its being run just like its always been. - LordDoerr
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09-19-2007, 10:36 AM,
Post: #24
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
Kraxxia Wrote:
fantasyfarting Wrote:wat are dragtor and dueirden is it like rhizard and eldron wear an equipment like ammy of the dead coz i think it should because other wise it wouldn't be fair

I can answer that for Shuck! ;D

Those are two unreleased races spoken of from years back. One commands stone (Duerdin), the other fire (Dragtor). That's all we peons know. ;_;

Dragtor: dragon-like race, probably will look a tiny bit like rhizards.  Duerdin: dwarven(?)-like race, I think. Not as sure about this one.

Off-topic: thank ye for standing up for our minority, Kraxxia. :3
Oh joy.
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09-19-2007, 10:43 AM,
Post: #25
Re: Discussion for the New Magic System
i got a question.. :o
are there going to be lvls for spells?
like spell *****
after * casts it will lvl up and do more damage or so?
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