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Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Printable Version

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RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Grey_man - 05-31-2014

I noticed that you used combinations, I'm not stupid. Total, the Rhizards get a 45-29% chance, lowering with every activation of the bracers, granted the Daggers 25% chance may be a slight bit high sure, but also remember when Insanity kicks in, you lose EVERYTHING beside the perks of insanity, you will attack 4 times, and heal for 100% of one of those attacks at the cost of 4% of your max MP, and then its reduced to 40% of one of those attacks. Eldrons, have a 20% chance sure, and a 2 round (the round its summoned, and the round after.) damage mitigation that might not even get targeted, which upon it being removed from battle, has a 30% chance to stun them. So that's on a single round in combat, they have a 50% chance to stun. Which then gets knocked back to 20% for the remainder. Humans, have no stun so to speak, they can however mitigate a single attack, on average, once every 6 (5%/15%/30%/50%/75%/105%, that is cumulative chances (5/10/15/20/25/30%)) or so attacks. Can negate 250 damage, if the attack even deals that much (lower, small attacks like julops would greatly mess with this) at most 20% of the time, only in Shield mode. Houndzalids however, get 5-50% chance to avoid an attack, which can be a constant number if they are willing to take a little risk (Houndzalids are the only race that don't have a potential damage rebuttal from a piece of gear, Eldrons have the amulet, Rhizards have the bracers, Humans have the Amulet.)

Remember in PvM there are going to be limitations to what magic we can use, We aren't going to have all these awesome magics, some of us will be greatly reduced in what we can do, potentially up to 90% reduced in what we can do and those who can not use magic/ Lose out on certain magic, will obtain some dodge chance, This is planned already,

Quoted from the forum "Magic System" , Located here --> http://www.phantasyrpg.com/dev2/showthread.php?tid=2091

"Q: How will a fighter be able to survive against a mage when they deal damage like that?
A: A system has been designed for resistance as well as dodging for Magic.

Q: Since fighters get resistance and dodging, how do we keep up?
A: Every point in wisdom you add will increase the damage you deal."

So I am playing to what I know about the magic systems. Realistically, I would imagine a Warrior type, would be able to get about a baseline 20% dodge chance in that system (I don't know the actual formula, I'm just assuming here.). You also have to remember, I know a particularly large amount more about the development plans, I don't like playing this card, but I've been staff, I know more about whats planned and been designed/worked on etc. Let me ask this, Something brought up a large amount, Slithers. What will everyone do, bar Witches, Flame shydes and Warlocks do, when magic is restricted to the actual areas they will have access to? Not everyone will pick fire as their secondary, so they will realistically, be in the same boat as Houndzalids damage dealing wise, and I doubt that Slithers will be the only monster with magic immunity/resistances. However, as you brought up healing magic Air and Water, have the only notable healing (doesn't make much sense to me, I would have thought Earth would but eh.) With earth having a very minor spell or two (Healed me for about 100 hp with a 2x multiplier), and Fire having none at all.

It would be far better to give Hounzalids your suggestions, in YOUR opinion. Me personally, between what you suggest, and what I have up here. I'd take my amulet and armor, For the reason of, While my healing may not be able to keep up with the damage I'm taking, It would lower the amount I take giving me more turns, and If I'm within reason good stats for the area, I'll meet a happy medium where I'm dodging enough, and healing enough to keep a constant level of hp roughly. When I hit 25% hp, I start dodging every 3rd attack on average (slightly more) , Me with my 8k HP, If I'm taking an average of 300 damage each attack, I land a hit on the opponent i will heal 200, So if i do this at 25% hp, i will dodge every 3rd attack on average, taking a total of 600/3 turns on average, while over those 3 turns I would heal for likewise, 600 damage, keeping me at a happy medium, thus sustaining a 25% hp level or so


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Karakarn - 05-31-2014

Exactly. Your system makes you most effective at 25% HP. If you have 16K HP llike me, it's very likely you won't die to one attack (4000 damage is a lot). If you're a fairly average-ish Hounzalid at say level 200 and only have 2000HP, then you're sitting at 500HP, and that's enough that a Graven Image has an off chance to OHKO you. All you'd have to do is get unlucky once or twice. No stuns, no decoys, no damage mitigation except dodge. Your dodge is nice, but all you need in order to die is a lucky hit, and then you have to slowly lose HP while your set gets back to full power. Everyone else's set is essentially full powered no matter the user's HP, while Hounzalid are very specific. They rock when their HP is low, but if they don't have the staying power to survive a few hits when they're low, then they die and make their gear redundant. Personally, I'd rather take my setup, be a bit less powerful at low HP than your set offers, but have better staying power across the board and further chances to hit hard, which is one thing this race is supposed to be good at.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Grey_man - 05-31-2014

Hounzalids are fairly Vitality orientated, Seeing as Vitality have bolstered perks specific to hounzalids. So to Use this equip, bare minimum youd have 1000hp or so (give or take) as the armor, the highest vitality req is 250 . That puts you at 750, plus 210, if your a lobo (best situation really, but doesn't vary a massive amount), then the extra 42 from your starting HP , and if you have the entire set, upgraded to the maxes, an extra 450 vitality will spew from it, smacking you all the way up to about 2.5k hp That is at level 125-165, an area, I'd say you'd be hitting around Ruins fairly comfortably. Now everyone else's gear, diminishes through out battle, Losing chance on certain abilities, taking damage from some of them, and even baring you from the use of certain abilities altogether. While the Hounzalids have nothing of the sorts. There gear only gets better the longer the fight goes on. And if it doesn't, then you obviously don't need the help from the gear, as you wouldn't be taking the damage to make the dodge better. But, that gives you 750hp to play with when your at your critical level and working at optimal levels, which is enough to survive a Graven attack, and as it takes 2 turns to kill one with the weapon fully upgraded to kill 1, Realistically, this should allow a level 125-165 to take out a pair of Graven images in 4 rounds, with just basic attacks and the use of the bracers, and maybe the Armor.

For example, lets say you face a pair of Graven Images,
First round, you hit 1 of them and apply a stack of bleed. Great its half health, but you take about 900 damage, putting you down to 1,600hp concerning but not too bad but you heal 2.5% for hitting him (woo hoo) which bumps you up to 1663 (not great but its nice).
Round two, you get the first strike in, and kill that first graven, healing you for 15% of your hp, healing you up to 2038. But you take a powerhouse 600 damage from the other, dropping you back to 1438 but again, you hit the thing so you get that extra 63hp again, getting you back to 1501hp.
Round 3, You smack him, and again, half health him , heal for your 63 hp to 1564, but again take a beating of 600 leaving you whimpering at 964. Sure its starting to look bad now.
Round 4, Next turn, you hit him. Killing him healing you for 63hp, and then your 375hp for the kill, leaving you at the end of the battle with 1402, enough to easily get along in your next fight.

However you haven't had a rebuttal to my other points I made, So there isn't much more I can say, however I will add, I truly hate having to use the " I was staff card" as it usually entails a "NDA prevents me from telling you" one. Which I don't like pulling, or being used on me. So if that has bothered/annoyed you, I do apologize , but there isn't much i can do about it


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Karakarn - 05-31-2014

Okay, so take your example of the hounzalid. That's cool. But take the eldron, and stack up how he'd deal with the gravens. Or the rhizard. Or the human. Please do me that much.

You're telling me that I'm not offering a rebuttal to your points. Well, technically you can claim anything you want and back it up with the ex-staff card and you assume instant credibility, so I won't bother dignifying that with a response. All I will say is that it is only viable if and when it has been released; until then, it amounts to speculation in my eyes, no more and no less. Frankly, I don't care what's planned, I care what's released, at least in this context.

Remember, when you do that comparison of two graven images, to do what you did with hounzalid and be fair with your judgments in what abilities will proc and which won't.

Also bear in mind that you are, by insisting on your own gear setup, still proving the point I was protesting from day 1...that being, the amulet will constantly be healing you, while you are technically at your best at 25% HP or lower, which makes no sense. No other set does this. There are some bits where once something happens, its chance of happening again are lower, and that's great. There are some abilities (insanity) that are a mixed blessing, admittedly. But there are many abilities that are pretty much no-risk for extra damage or survivability, and the hounzalid just don't have this.

Ex-staff or not, I personally do not feel you're right about many of the things you're saying. I feel like you cannot possibly be objective about the stuff you created, and I bet you feel I can't possibly be objective about the Hounzalid gear because I play one. Bear in mind that I also play a human, and was very open with the fact that Grandmaster Assassin is pretty bloody OP. I thus have a history of being at least fair, even when I'm vying for extra stuff for the race or races I'm playing.

More accurately, I feel like you, specifically, are not being objective enough. I do feel that it is possible to be objective about what one creates, on a general level, and in some ways before you have been. You have, after all, been at least a little open to suggestion.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Grey_man - 05-31-2014

Oh, if you want me incorporate all abilities into the example, That fight would have been over in round 2 or 3, with the axe, logically letting off a 1-2 extra attacks, and the hound would have dodged 1 attack so, he would have likely walked away with full hp. But with your nerf on the amulet, The hounzalid would, likely die in that battle, As that battle was if you were good, and hitting him before they could hit you. If they were to get the jump on you, with your amulet idea in mode 1. Where as if you were to have my amulet with the 15% heal upon slaying something. You would survive, barely, but still survive, because of that extra 375 hp heal.

Eldron
With a weapons that attack caps out at 90-120, they take about 4 hits to get through a graven. And with a fully upgraded kit, at final promo youd have around the 1250 hp mark, as a hero.

Round 1. You happen to have 2 seeds drop on the floor. and you strike one of the Gravens, Getting it down to about 75% hp, but taking a butt kicking 800hp, leaving you with 450hp.
Round 2. Your dead. That would be the pretty regular outcome here. However for arguments sake, you get ridculous lucky, And are able to heal using 1 seed, AND spawn in an Earth's Wall, which takes both hits from the Graven images. So your boosted from your 450, to about 500 hp. You also hit the same graven, getting it to half health.
Round3. Your still gonna die. But I'll continue anyway. you get even luckier and get to heal from another seed. bringing you now, to 540 hp. One of the gravens is stunned by the weapon, bringing you to 580 hp from the siphon, while the other hits you. Dealing a mediocre 450, leaving you on 130hp. Barely alive. You hit the same graven again, leaving it on about 40 hp.
Round 4. You get lucky, and the Earth wall proc's dealing damage to the graven. but oh dear, its the graven you have already badly injured. Killing it, Healing you for 40hp, giving you 180 hp, and you get lucky again double hitting the remaining, leaving it half healthed. Your now dead from its attack

Human:
With his weapon, in Two-handed mode giving you 160-230 attack, for an average of 195 per attack. logically two hitting things on average.
and with Hp about 1200 minimum with a fully upgraded set of this gear.

Round 1. You swing at the Graven, for half its health. But take a whipping of 850 hp damage leaving you with 350 left. But heal 30hp due to the Helm, giving you 380~hp.

Round 2. Your dead if the graven gets the first hit. but if he doesn't for arguments sake. You manage a lucky hit, activating the Bracers ability, Healing you for 245hp (average 195 damage healed + 50hp.) and kill the first Graven, and you are left with 625hp. But take a hiding from the Graven for 500 leaving you at 125hp. You don't heal your 35hp, as an ability has triggered.
Round 3. Your weapon activates, Dealing 3 wind weapons worth of damage, for 95 damage, you also strike your last graven for half its health, leaving it about 100 hp left.
Round 4. You get lucky and the Helm triggers its memory ability, causing a 2x strike by the bracers, killing the last Graven, and healing you for nothing, as it was the first hit that killed him, not the 2nd. Leaving you with 100hp for your next fight, which will likely spell dom.

Rhizards.
Dealing 2 attacks per round averaging out to about 150 damage per round (75 per attack) with a low low hp total of 1050hp minimum, they may dish damage, but they die fast.

Round 1. If you get unlucky. Dead. all it would take is a pair of 525 attacks or higher and your gone. But lets pretend you don't get throttled first round. You strike 1 graven for 150 damage, leaving it with 235hp, procing a stun on it for 1 round, and taking damage equal to 460 from the other leaving you on 590hp, but you get lucky and heal a little from your armor, giving you a new total hp of 630.

Round 2. You get lucky again managing to let off a explosion from your bracers, in conjuction with your attack from your daggers, this kills 1 graven image. But as it takes you getting hit to activate, You are now left with a low 220 hp from the 410hp attack. But oh now, you have taken recoil from the bracers lowering you further to 170hp. But look at that, your dead from the other Graven hitting you.

Hounzalids, Walk away best off from such an encounter, Humans next, Eldrons then Rhizards.



Now technically true, I can pull the ex-staffer card and clam insta-right on everything. Does that mean I'm going to? No. There are a large amount of things I could do. Does not mean I will do them. The very fact you would assume this (as noted in you not replying, and saying that is the reason why it isn't worth your time.) hurts a little, further more, I think I have been quite Objective. But sure, you're allow'd to think I'm wrong about numerous things, Just like I think your dead wrong about many things you have said also.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Karakarn - 05-31-2014

You've left out the biggest factor, and I thought you would. Magic. If the Eldron end up having access to Earthquake, they probably kill the gravens in two rounds, maybe one round if their wis multiplier is high enough. If the human in question has wind magic at a high enough level he can do really ugly things with the listed wind spells in the magic system found elsewhere on these forums. The rhizard should not be trying to face a pair of gravens with 1050HP, but assuming he does, he pretty much wins instantly if he goes insane, and even if he doesn't, you haven't taken Undertow into effect, nor reaction damage if the gravens are hit by spiky armour (not the bracers).

Look. I've told you the point you keep ignoring, but I'm honestly not sure about the point I'm apparently ignoring. If I say "you're wrong" or "I don't agree", that's not ignoring you, it's disagreeing with you. You cannot tell me that the Hounzalid amulet doesn't get in the way of maximizing the poncho in your setup, because it does. A flat 15% chance to dodge (my setup) means he's easier to kill when weak but harder to kill overall. And in my setup, if I knew I was going to be fighting a lot of monsters, I would probably use mode 2 (healing after every fight rather than after every hit).


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Grey_man - 05-31-2014

Alright, so to guarantee a 1 hit kill on a pair of Graven Images with Earthquake, you need about 2.5x wis multipler, or about 1000 wisdom, the way the spell should be done you'd also take damage equal to what you dish out, So you would likely die by your own hand in that. If they get 2 hits in on you first, and deal about 900 damage, you'd be dead from the Earthquake, again that's how the spell is meant to be, I haven't used it in that long, I'm unsure if it actually does this. Humans, Im not sure what magic they have, as far as I know, they have a fair bit of damage over time like spells, and risky spells that may injure the caster. Other then that, they all seem to only deal moderate damage. And even then, they have to be a tier 5 users. Which if that is the case, They would likely be relying on magic anyway. But I have also said, I worked this out in conjunction with some work I did on elemental resistances, where Graven Images would be at : Earth; Immune Fire; +85% Water; +80% Air; +90% Light; -25% Dark +95% Resistances, so as you can see. My thoughts would be magic is almost completely ineffective, I would barely be able to blackfire (the strongest spell in game damage wise) this dude down with my wisdom at 3k, and then I take harsh self-inflicted damage.
But, I can probably safely assume you won't much care for such a thing, Even if what you say yourself about wanting Graven Images immune to all elements, just so everyone is on the same playing field as hounzalids against them, Which would screw all the abilities on the other items, besides the Hounzalids which could still safely be dealing their true damage from the Bracers without interference. But then they still wouldn't need that.


Rhizards, Undertow is a 40% chance to proc on the first round of the battle, and the 2nd ability requires that, on your average battle, it wouldn't trigger. I did still take the amulets other ability into account though. Now, the spikey armor, thats one or the other. you don't get both. I'd think if you were wandering the Castle' at that level, you'd like the extra defense to help those powerhouse hits from Draugers. So I'd be in the Defensive mode. Hence why they got healed a little. And Insanity is a 10% chance at the start of the fight, If it doesn't trigger then, It will not later on. And even then, Insanity, 4 attacks at an average of 75 damage per hit, you wont even 1 round a Graven from this, and you would only heal for 75 damage, Insanity in this case, would get you slaughtered, as you cant heal from magic, cant heal from items, Cant have Explosions from the bracers, stuns from the weapon none of that.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Karakarn - 06-01-2014

So what point am I ignoring then? I'm honestly asking that, because if it turns out I am honestly ignoring something, I want to know. I've outlined the point I believe you're overlooking or choosing not to address, but I'm obviously missing something, because I don't like ignoring or tossing things aside.

If and when serious elemental resistance comes in, the Hounzalid will have it a little easier (except fire, of course, you'd better hope you don't face fire-eating stuff that will be healed if you hit it with fire). All the other races have this potential as well, mind you. Point is, if and when I see elemental resistances on monsters I will be able to more fairly judge the Hounzalid gear. As it stands now, however, my points mostly stand. I did concede a couple of things to you, but I feel like you have mostly not done that with me even when my points are valid (in particular, the bit where the amulet works against the poncho to make it so that you're far less likely to get the most out of the poncho's ability). Until elemental resistances are definitively on the block, we need to act like they aren't on the block, which is to say that we mustn't forget magic. Incidentally, there's an air spell that gives loads of extra attacks with extra damage; I remember seeing it and immediately thinking it was broken. Some magic is broken in its current state. I also used Earthquake as an example because I was told it's a very active graven-killer.

Random question: if you're insane and you can't use magic/can't flee/can't defend/can't mighty attack, that's all well and good, but why does it actively shut off the other abilities on your gear? You, for instance, aren't deliberately using all the tricks...some of them are happening when you're hit, or on a per-round or per-attack basis. Never mind that it might be difficult to code the insanity you have in mind, but I think I misunderstood what you meant till very recently regarding it. I thought it just meant that your only battle command was attack, and that everything else that would fire automatically could still happen.

Bear one last thing in mind. If you try and go into the castle with low stats (your def isn't high enough, or you struggle to hit draugers physically) and then whine because you die, that's your own fault. As well as considering how easily one might die if one gets into a hard fight at the very bare minimum for equipping gear, we should also be considering the ramifications for higher-level players with big HP/MP pools and the like. Your eldron, human and rhizard stuff might kinda look frail when the wearer has 1200HP and tries facing down two gravens, but it looks a hell of a lot better when they have 3kHP or so.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Grey_man - 06-01-2014

And the amulet and Hounzalid Armor look pretty awesome at 16000 hp, Allowing you to heal 400 hp per hit, 2400hp per kill, and sit at 4000hp while having a constant 35% dodge chance, with a 15% chance also if the damage you take is enough to kill you which would then heal you to 1600hp. The poncho ability is all about being prepared for the worst, having a plan to increase your survival chances. The military doesn't go in and say, NAH we don't need a contingency plan for the situation should they suffer loses. When I go hunting, I bring along a Medical kit, I may not need it, Hell i may never need it. But when I am thrown into that situation where I need it, Im going to be damn happy I have it.

I'd imagine it would be easy-ish to code the type of insanity I'm imagining, Have a code that 4 mighty strikes, followed by end of player attacks that would override all others. If certain abilities are coded to occur as on-hit effects, then they can occur sure. But one could say that the Terror that implements these images, is strong enough to stop all interference, no matter if it helps or harms.

However, I don't see how your point about elemental resistances stands. There is plenty of evidence, In the form of resistances already in-game, to suggest that serious resistances will be worked in, Temple of Shadows have them, mostly being Dark resist/weak against light. But, Hunting hawks and Giants bats are resistant to Earth (or atleast earthquake when i last checked.) Slithers are immune against everything but fire, Not to mention all the items that bare elemental resist boosts. And even the Hounzalid overpowered resistant baseline. All evidence to heavily suggest that there is going to be serious elemental resistances.

Where are you seeing me saying your ignoring something? Everytime I have said that, I have immediately explained what you seem to have missed or ignored, On most situations, it being the actual mechanics of an ability (such as the Earth wall and The insanity.)


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Karakarn - 06-01-2014

Elemental resistance only matters where it's used. We aren't talking about bats and hawks, we're talking about graven images. If they become magic immune (and yes, I have suggested this), then most of your points for someone who's weak trying to kill them will stand. We know what's happening right now, but we don't know what is planned for later. Most monsters in the game do not have any resistances, and most races/classes don't have inherent dodge chance. If and when they do, fine, but they don't right now and there's no proof that they ever will.

You're right. The military does not go in without contingency plans. I'm not exactly sure how that's relevant, mind you...I think I fail to see your point on that one.

You're right. Your amulet looks quite good, in some ways, because it gives two different types of healing. But because it gives two different types of healing, getting down to 4000HP is going to be one hell of a lot harder. As such, it's harder to kill me; that alone is fine, but it also means that your argument of how great and powerful I am when I'm weak is...kind of weakened, itself, because it'd be hard for me to get that way. You're saying "look how powerful you'd be when x happens", but if it is very difficult for x to happen, then we can't use x as an everyday scenario. Sure, it's possible, but it's not that likely. I think, thus, that the wiser choice is to give gear that is useful and decent all the time rather than at specific times only.
My model of the amulet only has one set of healing at any given time, and it can snatch a lot of HP at once to make your attacks hit considerably harder. In a long fight this can stack many times, though the likelihood is very low. Also, in my model, the poncho's dodge chance is not affected by your HP, so your dodge chance is universal.
I dunno; to me, this is open and shut. The closest I can get to your military contingency comment is this: "We should be prepared for the most likely eventuality more than we should prepare for the most unlikely". Your idea is not a bad one, it's just not a great one. I think from a fundamental numbers perspective, mine is more logical and covers more uses, while yours covers one particular case much better than mine.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Grey_man - 06-01-2014

Well, fine that is your way of approaching it. Me however, I have seen enough evidence to show that magic resistant will be implimented into the game, as well as race/class inherent dodge chance.

The poncho is the contingency plan, You may not be put into situations that require it, but when you do, it will more then likely be the difference between win and lose. With this gear, typically speaking you will kill a pair of Graven Images most of the time with the Hounzalid gear, even using it with your bare minimum requirement stats. But in the event that they get say, first strike two rounds in a row. Youd be left on a little bit along the lines of 400 hp (2400 damage from the 4 attacks the gravens dish out, then about a 300hp heal from the 1 you kill). This will give you 35% chance to dodge the attack from the graven the next turn, which would surely kill you, and an additional 15% to dodge the fatal, so 50% chance to survive. Which, can and very much will spell the difference between your death and your survival.

But keep in mind, you can always remove an item from the set if you don't like it. Your not forced to wear all 5 gears. It would be like me, I personally wouldn't use the Eldron helm, I'd sooner take a Grasp of Madness.

But, to be honest the last week or so I have been deciding weather or not to throw a inverted chance of a mana regeneration when you are close to max hp. Something like, At 100% hp, you will regenerate 20mp per turn, and lose 1mp per turn for every 5% hp your are missing, until 25% where you will regenerate a constant 5mp per turn. This would give synergy with the amulet, giving you a perk for sticking to high hp, synergy with the armor itself, covering for some of the mp cost for dodging, Synergy with the helm, covering some of the mp cost for the Helm.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Karakarn - 06-01-2014

Why don't you just do as I'm suggesting? I have yet to see a reason why my abilities, as I've laid them out, are bad or inferior to yours. Bearing in mind that the majority of monsters are -not like graven images, and -will be hurt by your attack rather than just your weapon damage, and so having some HP drained for a pretty significant attack boost will speed battles up and keep you alive longer.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Grey_man - 06-01-2014

Why should I? I'm yet to see anything that shows me they are better then what I have put down or more deserving.

Also when you say things that way, it makes it sound like you are trying to give me orders on my own project, which some would think you are trying to find a way to slap your name on the project at hand one way or another. But hey that's just what some would think. As I have seen it occur in the past


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Karakarn - 06-01-2014

I had a really long post written out for this, but then I thought better of it.
Instead, here's what I'll say:
Good ideas are good no matter who they come from, and that goes for bad ideas as well. Hard work and good ideas do not have to go hand in hand.
I can state my opinion strenuously enough to ask why you won't do something without, as you say, wanting my name slapped on a project. Considering that I have offered to help staff unofficially without receiving any staff credit at least twice in the past, you're dead wrong about me wanting my name on this project.
I can't say this strongly enough. If disagreeing with you in public results first in flawed logic and then in veiled personal attacks, then I wash my hands of the whole thing. I can only hope that this sort of behaviour is marked by those who read in future for exactly what it is and what it means. You posted your ideas, I brought up a lot of criticism after you invited me to do so, and when we reached a sort of impass you resorted to a half-hearted personal attack regarding my desire to "slap my name on a project", which is something I've never shown before, have never wanted and never will. In a word, that's unprofessional. There are other words for it too, but that's the most accurate one.

I will apologize if I have insulted you in the course of this debate, as it was never my intention to do so. I can think you're dead wrong while still believing that your effort should be commended, and I can think I'm right even if I think you're often a stand-up guy. But I'm bowing out now. You'll probably be pleased by this, but since I'm not the first who has been seriously dissuaded from helping the game by you, I hope that this, too, is marked for the sort of behaviour it is.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Grey_man - 06-01-2014

Did I ever say that is what I thought you were doing? I did not, I think you have misread or misunderstood my words, I said, it is how some may see your intentions, not how I would. I say this as I have seen it in the past, As recent as the beginning of this year, And the results were not exactly of a desirable nature.

However seeing as you, instantly jumped to such a conclusion, I can probably say 1 of a few things from that. You don't think that highly of me, or at least, not enough to stop you thinking that I was trying to be subtle by saying some, meaning I thought this, which I wasn't and didn't , I meant exactly what I said. However I could say the same to you. My Disagreeing with you, has only brought you to further persist, in emphasizing how I appear to be "wrong", and you seem to think you are "right" with your ideas. Or in this situation, it would be more along the lines of, we are both right. You just think your more right. Furthermore, I could say some of the things you have said, could be seen as veiled insults, however I am above thinking this, as I know the odds of such a thing are ridiculously low, at their highest..

However you do bring up a important and worrying point, that being someone who has been dissuaded from helping the game due to me. I do not know of such a person, since at least 2008-2009 time, which 1) was before your time on the game, and 2) was long ago when I was a mere immature child practically. Which even then that situation was remedied with a formal apology from myself. And if there is such a person, I would like to know of them as this is directly related to me, and a situation I was not aware of.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Karakarn - 06-02-2014

You have seen...what as recently as the beginning of this year? Me attempting to get my name slappd on something? Funny, I thought I was only trying to help. I guess that's what one gets when they have an opinion they are silly enough to think they can voice.

Look. If you truly don't believe that I'm trying to slap my name on things, then don't bring it up at all. This is why I labelled it a half-hearted personal attack; if you believe it's true, then by all means have on, and I'll stick to my guns as stated in my previous message. If you don't, you succeeded in doing absolutely nothing productive by mentioning it.
To be brutally harsh here for just a moment, I do care about what people say about me, but usually I care more when I hear it from the source, and I only care if it's relevant. If you told me the next time we saw each other in chat that you think I'm a cheat who's only on the game because I haven't been caught, I'd laugh, much the same way you'd dismiss if I said that of you. No evidence means no weight to the opinion. I refuse to be sniped at, point-blank refuse.

And as to the other player dissuaded from helping by you, just go back and think a bit. I personally saw it happen; I'm not speaking from second or third-person hearsay. I am not referring to someone who's left the game but more to someone who had most of the desire to help taken from them by the way you conducted yourself earlier this year. Your memory is suspect enough already, since you're saying I was trying to get my name slapped on a project when all I've ever tried to do is help out, so I won't be surprised if you misremember the rest of what happened as well. My mom has a saying, and it applies particularly well here: "When it comes to the past, some of us stack the deck".

Next time, when someone has the temerity to dig in their heels and really and truly disagree with you, either refuse to keep arguing about it or do them a favour and take them seriously.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Grey_man - 06-02-2014

..... Sigh, again you have gone and twisted what I have said. I never once said it was you trying to get your name slapped on a project in the past did I? I merely said I've seen it happen at the beginning of the year, someone using very similar, almost exact words you used before, being "why dont you just do as i suggest" I do not wish for the mistakes of the past to be repeated, so I brought it up. I saw someone else attempt to do it, and it failed.... spectacularly. And I wasn't even the one saying they were trying it, albeit I did see and agree that it was happening.

I still do not know who you are talking about, there has been no one that I have seen just stop trying to help because of me, and me alone. I can pretty safely assume, you do not speak of yourself. But seeing as your questioning my memory, trying to imply that I will "alter" the truth to suit me, I don't see why I should really bother playing this "guess who" game, so if you could go ahead and enlighten me as to who this was/is, that would be appreciated.

However on your point about people digging their heels in, You could really take your own advice there. And seeing as this was my forum and my idea, I do not see why i should do this


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Karakarn - 06-02-2014

Don't try and backpedal. This is what you said:
Also when you say things that way, it makes it sound like you are trying to give me orders on my own project, which some would think you are trying to find a way to slap your name on the project at hand one way or another. But hey that's just what some would think. As I have seen it occur in the past

And that's pretty bloody clear-cut. If it's not, then you need to learn to rephrase what you meant in a tearing hurry. I'm pretty sure most people would read this as as an offhand accusation. If you don't mean to accuse, then don't give every impression of accusing. You do this a great deal; most of the vices people accuse you of are dismissed in this way, because apparently we're twisting your words or reading you wrong. News flash: if the same person, who otherwise demonstrates a willingness and ability to understand you, keeps apparently misunderstanding or misconstruing what you say, it might, just might, be something that you should work on. And the more people have done this with you, the more often it occurs with more than just one person, the more exponentially persuasive the point becomes. Since I've personally witnessed it happening with other people at least twice, not including myself, I'd say that's a ringing endorsement. If you don't want to be misunderstood, then be clearer. I don't have a lot of patience for people who say x, then get angry with you when you act on their having said x because apparently they actually said y and you didn't read it correctly.

As to the rest of it, that's your problem. I'm not going to start naming names and calling people out. If you don't remember who you sort of drove off, then clearly you don't have much concern for the harm you do when you act as you do.


RE: Repeatable Event. *The Rift opens* - Grey_man - 06-02-2014

You think you understand me? Wow okay, sure. I will say this again. I did not ONCE say that it was either you in the past that it occurred with, nor did I once say that it was me who thought this, let alone anyone else. All you did was jump to a conclusion that suited your argument. I doubt you even considered for a second, I may be trying to ward off a situation I don't wish repeated did you?

But hey, what do I know.

However I will say this, congratulations, you have taken yet another persons drive away from them to help the game. I will no longer try to design things to help the game, nor will I even attempt to get on staff again, even though I have been doing this, along with about 4 other projects in an attempt to impress and persuade them into giving me a shot.

And no, I don't remember who I have supposedly taken their drive from, the only person I can think of who wanted to make an effort to help, but stopped was Scarr. And I highly doubt the change in heart there is my fault.